It really was a tangled mess in there, particularly the Cascade. The tips of the bines are also delicate and very easy to break and once that happens, that bine won't grow longer. That actually helped with the thinning process as I just completely removed the bine if I accidentally broke the tip trying to untangle it or wind it around the twine. I ended up training more then just two or three bines per twine though, as there were so many healthy and strong ones and I just couldn't bring myself to cut them back. One of the Cascade bines is already rounding the second bend in the twine which is making me think that its going to reach the total length of 14 feet pretty quickly.